Curse

HigherMinion · Feb 07, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

that was what i was thinking too .

anyway,

I realise how much I use MoP (shadow/armour ignoring damage) and how often i see 42 damage . However, what i didn't realise is that you don't find a lot of skills which reduces the damage of MoP even though there are a lot of skills which are capable of reducing armour ignoring damage .

Because of the fact that OoV deals extra life steal in small packs, shielding hands / turtle shell can reduce it to 0 .

Neither shielding hands nor Stoneflesh Aura will affect Life-Draining because it is, as you say, no damage type. It takes exactly the amount of life it says on the tin.

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So i can come to the conclusion that life steal in large packets > armour ignoring damage in large packets > life steal in small packets > armour ignoring damage in small packets > rest .

Holy / Shadow damage / spirit attacks = Armour ignoring .

Life steal = life steal . Life steal has no damage type .

Firstly, Holy and Shadow damage is not armour ignoring. And if you look in the description of Barbs and Mark of Pain, where does it say "Deals x Shadow Damage"?

Life-stealing, is not affected by any prots, and is in a seperate packet. I think you have made some bad observations.Because when, for example, a Stoneflesh Mandragor uses Stoneflesh Aura, Barbs will do 0 damage; even with BuH. However if you have OoV active, it will carry on stealing as much as it always did.

Life-steal>Armour Ignoring>Holy/Shadow>a blunt spoon>Elemental. lololol

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Yes i know how you said that heroes position spirits badly . well .. i don't have a solution for that but i guess it worked fine for me up to now so yeah .. i'll just see how it goes . And i don't have to rely on many physicals for damage dealt by OoV to be up to par with SoS . which means blind doesn't reduce my DPS much but it would affect my DPS a lot if i used OoV .

apparently, i did very badly when our team had to split up in that mish . OoV didn't help my team much since it was 4 casters with spears . and i was the one (with minions) attacking the most .

Also, what kind of damage is the additional damage done by attack skills e.g. death blossom .

Every hit steals life.

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at rank 12, it does +40 damage . I don't think any skills can reduce this damage . other than prot spirit / prot bond . Have yet to test it .

About my OoU hero build...

I run Bone Minions because it's simply faster to raise minions faster for less energy, and I am impatient. As soon as these minions have been raised OoU will start dishing damage; And they DO use it well. Even if they just use it once or twice in a fight, the damage is more than any Death Nova. And it also synergies with OoV for the rest of your team as the MM will have no necromancer enchantments.

The hero's energy is fine using fiends, there is generally a 50/50 split of frontline and backline minions, and the power of the needles under OoU are awesome. Bring Ebsoh on your friend and you'll be slaughtering mobs before they can harm them. Barbs+EBSoH+OoU, Minions are going to rape. With OoV your team will do the same.

maxxfury · Feb 07, 2010, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Whats OuU and OuD ? xD OoU ?

ah crap, you got me :P You know when you type something when ur tired and it doesnt look right? but ur brain doesnt know why? thats what that is :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just bitching about this - they do NOT use AotL well.
AotL needs to be spammed on recharge, since that allows you to obtain minions that are 2 levels higher. (You use it once, that raises your Death by one - you use it a second time before it runs out and the game raises your already raised Death by one, raising the level of minions by one once again and increasing the length by a few secs once again.)
Heroes fail at that - which means you end up with +1 level minions instead of +2 levels.

uh huh...you got me on that too :P but it still stands they get more out of it than OoU, even if just for the easier wall raising...well thats in my exp :P
Tho i still prefer emp removal :P

upier · Feb 07, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

uh huh...you got me on that too :P but it still stands they get more out of it than OoU, even if just for the easier wall raising...well thats in my exp :P
Tho i still prefer emp removal :P

Btw - I was paying attention to my morons today and it seems that Masochism is the same kind of problematic crap. They'll let it run out before they recast it.

Xenomortis · Feb 07, 2010, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Firstly, Holy and Shadow damage is not armour ignoring. And if you look in the description of Barbs and Mark of Pain, where does it say "Deals x Shadow Damage"?

Shadow damage is armour ignoring. Spiteful Spirit and Mark of Pain (along with a load of other skills) deal Shadow damage but only state so in the Full description (not the concise description).
Holy damage from spells and the like is armour ignoring, but when dealt by attacks via Judge's Insight or AoHM or wands, it isn't.

maxxfury · Feb 07, 2010, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Skills cause shadow damage, that IS armour ignoring.

Wands/staves cause dark/holy*/chaos, and ARE effected by armour, but there are no +armour vs dark/holy/chaos mods/resistances unlike all other types, eg fire or blunt, making them a (lol) slightly better choice for your wand/stave.

*undeads take double damage and some skills are holy damage and coincdentally are also armour ignoring.

Sidenote: mes skills are often wrongly refered to as chaos damage, when infact they are just non-specified armour ignoring damage.

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

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Neither shielding hands nor Stoneflesh Aura will affect Life-Draining because it is, as you say, no damage type. It takes exactly the amount of life it says on the tin.

incorrect information .

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Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, damage and life steal received by target ally is reduced by 3...15...18. When Shielding Hands ends, that ally is healed for 5...41...50 Health.
Concise description
Enchantment Spell. (8 seconds.) Reduces incoming damage and life steal by 3...15...18. End effect: heals for 5...41...50

Quote:

Firstly, Holy and Shadow damage is not armour ignoring. And if you look in the description of Barbs and Mark of Pain, where does it say "Deals x Shadow Damage"?

Life-stealing, is not affected by any prots, and is in a seperate packet. I think you have made some bad observations.Because when, for example, a Stoneflesh Mandragor uses Stoneflesh Aura, Barbs will do 0 damage; even with BuH. However if you have OoV active, it will carry on stealing as much as it always did.

Life-steal>Armour Ignoring>Holy/Shadow>a blunt spoon>Elemental. lololol

Wrong again .

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Mark of Pain deals 10...34...40 shadow damage to adjacent foes.

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Unlike dark damage, shadow damage ignores armor and character level.

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Life-stealing, is not affected by any prots, and is in a seperate packet.

go read http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Life_stealing <- scroll all the way down .

barbs is not shadow damage . when did i say it dealt shadow damage ?

It seems like you've got your information wrong .

All quoted information came from GuildWars Wiki . I'd suggest you read before you "lolol" me .

Quote:

for example, a Stoneflesh Mandragor uses Stoneflesh Aura, Barbs will do 0 damage; even with BuH. However if you have OoV active, it will carry on stealing as much as it always did.

I never said Stoneflesh Aura reduced the damage of life steal . I said turtle shell . If you don't know how much it reduces,

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The damage reduction is equal to the creature's level. A level 23 Kappa will have all direct damage to it reduced by 23 points.

Go test it if you don't believe . use OoV in the eternal grove mish .

Also, Read Xeno's and Maxx's post

anyway, after a while of trial and error (20 hrs maybe?)

I've come up with a pretty good general OoV team build .

You - Anything . In this case, I am a MoP Nuker.

ER Protter - ER, Aura of Restoration, Prot Spirit, Aegis, Spirit bond, Infuse, Reversal of Fortune, Shield Guardian.

Energy Storage 12 + 1 +1
Protection Magic 12

AotL MB - AotL, Putrid Bile, Animate bone minions, death nova, infuse condition, foul feast, splinter weapon, masochism.

Death Magic 12+1+1
Soul Reaping 8+1
Channelling Magic 10

OoV Protter - OoV, Mark of Fury, Strip Enchantment, Protective Spirit, Aegis, Dwayna's Sorrow, SoLS, a resurrect spell .

Blood Magic 12+1+3
Soul Reaping 8+1
Healing Prayers 5
Protection Prayers 9

I had 5 optionals for OoV. I wanted foul feast but i didn't have infuse condition . then i realised that i could swap some skills around . so i went to swap the prot spirit, aegis, dwayna's sorrow for infuse condition and foul feast and splinter weapon . splinter weapon is all i need from channelling so it would be a waste if i had points in channelling attribute for my OoV nec .

So 3 optionals would have gone to prot spells for my OoV since i've swapped them around . and i added SoLS for energy management and a resurrect spell .

Perfecto .

Now you have what you need from channelling (Splinter weapon), you still have 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit, dwayna's sorrow and this time, you have a res spell

and of course, longer prot spirit and aegis since my OoV is using 20% enchant weapon .

Add 1 healer and 3 physicals and you're ready to win .

maxxfury · Feb 07, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

note: life draining (vamp weapons) =/= life stealing(nec skills). it was changed with the prot vs blood magic update were rof/ls/sh not work vs blood magic.

Quote:

Neither shielding hands nor Stoneflesh Aura will affect Life-Draining because it is, as you say, no damage type. It takes exactly the amount of life it says on the tin.

Is correct infomation. Vamp weapons aka life draining always do their stated numbers. *its poss one or two monster skills negate this..but nothing in genpop

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

yes I know life drain is not life steal.

He probably used the wrong word . Why life draining all of a sudden when we were talking about life steal ? Besides, life draining can only be found on vamp weapons yeah? We weren't talking about weapons but the spell, OoV which is life steal .

Edit: if you read his post properly, he says "as you say, is no damage type"

but what I said was life steal and not life drain . Seems like he doesn't know their difference ? And higherminion, please don't be offended, I'm just trying to correct you

maxxfury · Feb 07, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

sounds like a possible case of terminology clash?

HigherMinion · Feb 07, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

yes I know life drain is not life steal.

He probably used the wrong word . Why life draining all of a sudden when we were talking about life steal ? Besides, life draining can only be found on vamp weapons yeah? We weren't talking about weapons but the spell, OoV which is life steal .

Edit: if you read his post properly, he says "as you say, is no damage type"

but what I said was life steal and not life drain . Seems like he doesn't know their difference ? And higherminion, please don't be offended, I'm just trying to correct you

Sigh. I forgot to take into account the anti-life-steal skill update, bleh.

Ok, I checked MoP in the Full Description for a change, and yes, I was wrong about shadow damage. Not really willing to say holy damage is armour ignoring, when it doesn't always deal the damage it says on the description. And holy damage from weapons isn't armour ignoring either, so all in all Holy damage= Armour/monster sensitive.

Life-steal= from a spell.
Life-drain=From weapons.

That update pretty much pissed on me, I'm annoyed.

OoV is still good as a lifestealing heal; as you won't find these prots too often in most areas.

Lusciious · Feb 08, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

How do you guys find the general OoV setup that I racked my brains over for probably 20 hrs ?

Criticisms please !

The reason why I don't run nightmare weapon or warmongers is that Livia seldom casts it . And the most important skill in channelling attribute is splinter which is on the MB .

In low corpse areas where I can't use a MB , I would take a WE scythe warrior / barrage ranger + pet and splinter .

Precisely because you don't find many of these prots , despite it being small life steal packets, it is still good like you said . Are you sure holy damage eg Ray of judgement doesn't deal the amount that is stated on it's description ? I'm in school ATM . Can't check . I know holy based buffs eg AoHM and judges insight don't deal armour ignoring damage because it's percentile based . Holy spells are armour ignoring if I can still remember . That's why SoJ always deals the same amount of damage against foes that don't use skills that can reduce armor ignoring damage .

MasterSasori · Feb 08, 2010, 04:24 AM // 04:24

[QUOTE=Lusciious;5045370]How do you guys find the general OoV setup that I racked my brains over for probably 20 hrs ? [

Criticisms please !/QUOTE]

I don't know about your exact set up but I've been using mine for a long time and its always served me well.

The last 3 or 4 pages of this thread was you and me and everyone arguing about OoV. You can recap on it.

Infuse Condition and FF is a waste. Dwayna's sorrow is also unneeded and IMO, pretty worthless compared to other stuff u can take.

Anyway in my build I don't run the ER and I just go with SoS rit which I micromanage because xandra couldn't win an IQ match against cheese.

Lusciious · Feb 08, 2010, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Look A few posts above . How is dwayna sorrow useless . You can create minions so quickly that it abuses the wide party heal of dwayna sorrow . Infuse and ff is a waste ? In other words not worthy that skill slot ? What do you use then ? What's your build and your hero builds ?

MasterSasori · Feb 08, 2010, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Look A few posts above . How is dwayna sorrow useless . You can create minions so quickly that it abuses the wide party heal of dwayna sorrow . Infuse and ff is a waste ? In other words not worthy that skill slot ? What do you use then ? What's your build and your hero builds ?

Dwayna's sorrow is useless because you don't need that extra life buff because if your minions are doing wut theyre supposed to, the enemy should be killing them first instead of your team so minion wall should be gone before you sustain any significant damage. Though it seems really good, it's really a win-more skill. I wouldn't say its bad, but I don't think its great.

FF is a waste because what condition is possibly going to affect you to a point where it matters? The only time I can see FF being helpful is when there is massive all around blind and the occasional dw or daze. Taking up a slot, or with infuse, two slots for this is just BS. I'm sure you can find better things for your MM.

What I run depends on what I am doing. But the overall idea is what I posted in another thread somewhere or the PvX wiki build I posted.

Imbagon
N/Rt OoV Healer
SoS secondary healer Rit/ Stun Strike Para support
AotL N/Me Rupter/AotL N/Mo Protter

Lusciious · Feb 08, 2010, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Dwayna's sorrow is useless because you don't need that extra life buff because if your minions are doing wut theyre supposed to, the enemy should be killing them first instead of your team so minion wall should be gone before you sustain any significant damage. Though it seems really good, it's really a win-more skill. I wouldn't say its bad, but I don't think its great.

FF is a waste because what condition is possibly going to affect you to a point where it matters? The only time I can see FF being helpful is when there is massive all around blind and the occasional dw or daze. Taking up a slot, or with infuse, two slots for this is just BS. I'm sure you can find better things for your MM.

A MB does what it is supposed to do, sacrifice minions . Dwayna's Sorrow takes advantage of that . I call this good synergy . In long matches or if there happen to be massive AoE, minions die before they are near the opponent . At least the heals would help heal the party, thus negating some damage from AoE spells . and because you can create minions quickly, it abuses it even further .

Yeah . Conditions don't really matter much unless they're blinds or daze . Well i guess it's a waste then . imma swap this out for something . don't forget that by transferring conditions to your minions, you're helping them to die as well . and no/little condition is always good .

Rupts are useless in HM . Heroes don't know which skills are elite which skills aren't . they interrupt whenever they can . IMO, this is not worth the attribute spread .

Your build focuses too much on defence . Imbagon ? 2 semi healers ? a protter ? There is not much damage . Why not get a P/N MoP Support ?

if you have an imbagon, you don't need 2 healers to keep your party up . infact, an ER infuser and a motigon (it's on pvx . a support paragon ) would be good enough .

I have MoP, Splinter, OoV . That's alot of physical support .

I have 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit and spammable prots e.g. rof and shield guardian to push red bars up and massive aoe heals from dwayna's sorrow and shield guardian and OoV .

I also have a lot of minions to proc MoP and barbs . And i have no problems with conditions and my res heals the whole party .

I like it

and i don't have to micro much .

your build has unrivalled defences, armour ignoring damage if you micro properly, physical support e.g. OoV and splinter weapon, heals to push red bars up, rupts ? prots ? and daze support ? Alot of minions but for what ? just for sacrifice ?

My prots are comparable to your unrivalled defences and the lack of prots unless you're running N/Mo which doesn't really add much since it's only aegis and prot spirit and because i've got 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit, spirit bond, rof, shield guardian. My physical support is better . I have barbs and MoP . you don't . you can push red bars up, so can i . i can even negate damage at the same time . you might have more wide party heal . i have shield guardian, dwayna's sorrow, OoV . you have life, pwk or support from paragon and oov . you have rupts i don't but what's the point of rupting when you can kill ? if he doesn't die fast, chances of you dying is increased . i'm somewhat immune to conditions . are you ?

I guess if yours works then it's good . I like mine the way it is

Oh and, my MoP is spammable .

I like making comparisons to see how i can improve .

I will take into consideration the fact that FF and Infuse is a waste of 2 skills . I'll see if there are any more optionals worth using over them .

i won't use rupts cause they're both good and bad on heroes in a way that they don't interrupt good skills . they interrupt everything .

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

OoV Protter - OoV, Mark of Fury, Strip Enchantment, Protective Spirit, Aegis, Dwayna's Sorrow, SoLS, a resurrect spell .

Blood Magic 12+1+3
Soul Reaping 8+1
Healing Prayers 5
Protection Prayers 9

I had 5 optionals for OoV. I wanted foul feast but i didn't have infuse condition . then i realised that i could swap some skills around . so i went to swap the prot spirit, aegis, dwayna's sorrow for infuse condition and foul feast and splinter weapon . splinter weapon is all i need from channelling so it would be a waste if i had points in channelling attribute for my OoV nec .

So 3 optionals would have gone to prot spells for my OoV since i've swapped them around . and i added SoLS for energy management and a resurrect spell .

Perfecto .

Now you have what you need from channelling (Splinter weapon), you still have 2 aegis, 2 prot spirit, dwayna's sorrow and this time, you have a res spell

and of course, longer prot spirit and aegis since my OoV is using 20% enchant weapon .

Add 1 healer and 3 physicals and you're ready to win .

Seeing as you will most likely be running Melee with OoV; you can drop the prots/heals and bring 10 smiting for Strength of Honour, Smite Hex/Condition perhaps, but pretty much the rest is optimal. SoH is like a Hero variant for GDW, without the knockdown.

Lusciious · Feb 08, 2010, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Strength of honor ? who do i cast it on though ? spear wielding casters like me ? or real physicals e.g. warriors / rangers o.o do i maintain more than 1 ?

Xenomortis · Feb 08, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Strength of honor ? who do i cast it on though ? spear wielding casters like me ? or real physicals e.g. warriors / rangers o.o do i maintain more than 1 ?

What?
You put SoH on whoever has a melee weapon in their hand - fairly obvious really. It only works for melee attacks and a hero necro can handle two or one pip energy regeneration unless they have a lot of expensive skills.

Lusciious · Feb 08, 2010, 12:08 PM // 12:08

casters with spears attack less frequently than normal physicals .

i don't think that extra 17 - 18 damage is worth aegis and prot spirit .

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2010, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

casters with spears attack less frequently than normal physicals .

i don't think that extra 17 - 18 damage is worth aegis and prot spirit .

It's not an extra 17-18 damage; it's an extra 17-18 damage PER melee character you give it to.